Comments on: Grudem on Women’s Roles in the Church http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/ after darkness, light Tue, 05 May 2009 10:29:18 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: mattsvoboda http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-205 mattsvoboda Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:33:08 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-205 Women can have lay leadership roles, just not pastoral ones. God gives authority to those he calls to pastor and he says that a woman shall not have authority over a man in the church. Which means God most certainly doesn't call a woman into the ministry. The roles are still equal, but different. WE NEED WOMEN IN THE CHURCH. Just so thats clear before I continue. Kamov, at the end of your blog you wrote that it has only been the last 7-8 years since this teaching was held too and before that women could do whatever. We all need to thank R. Albert Mohler. Southern Seminary, the largest SBC seminary in the country, used to be very liberal but thanks to Dr. Mohler we have gonee back to being Evangelical Conservtaives that hold to everything taught in scripture. Unlike the liberals who were running things over 8 years ago. Women can have lay leadership roles, just not pastoral ones. God gives authority to those he calls to pastor and he says that a woman shall not have authority over a man in the church. Which means God most certainly doesn’t call a woman into the ministry. The roles are still equal, but different. WE NEED WOMEN IN THE CHURCH. Just so thats clear before I continue. Kamov, at the end of your blog you wrote that it has only been the last 7-8 years since this teaching was held too and before that women could do whatever. We all need to thank R. Albert Mohler. Southern Seminary, the largest SBC seminary in the country, used to be very liberal but thanks to Dr. Mohler we have gonee back to being Evangelical Conservtaives that hold to everything taught in scripture. Unlike the liberals who were running things over 8 years ago.

]]> By: Charlie Wallace http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-182 Charlie Wallace Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:52:08 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-182 Uh oh. Emily got involved on my site. Uh oh. Emily got involved on my site.

]]> By: C. Andrew Jones III http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-181 C. Andrew Jones III Wed, 10 Jan 2007 03:13:39 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-181 Hounds, release. Hounds, release.

]]> By: Kamov http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-180 Kamov Wed, 10 Jan 2007 01:22:15 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-180 BOOM!!!!! Soooo Today's average 13 year old XBOX playing "MAN" is more qualified then ANY woman to lead in a church?? Umm I don't think so,, I believe Paul was addressing a particular group of gossips at the time, not all women all the time. I also find it funny that the Baptist Churches in the areas I have attended have many women Sunday school teachers ,quire directors (A ministry in itself!!), secretaries in-charge of the Churches money. ETC ETC.. some of those Sunday school teachers GASP, even teach men!! Yet If you are an SBC affiliated woman and God calls you to Preach you cant simply because some old dudes strictly interpret Two biblical passages while ignoring the many other examples?? Heck since when did it become fashionable to cull through select passages in the Bible just so we can support a position while ignoring other passages? are some parts of the Bible actually more important then others? The point is I find the Bible has more positions stating that women should be allowed to hold positions WITH and even sometimes over men.. Then the other way around. We are ALL under GOD so why the silly semantics... also I believe the Bible applies in ALL situations not just Church Settings, so all those women School teachers and professors, well they are all Un-biblical according to the SBC interpretations. somebody please explain Pricilla, Deborah, Phoebe,Miriam and Huldah?? all were sought out by MEN for their opinions.. Deborah not holding a position over men is particularly hard to swallow. Also why was it just with in the last 7 or 8 years that the SBC decided to Champion this particular interpretation? I mean before that time it was ok for women to get ordained and hold leadership positions. BOOM!!!!! Soooo Today’s average 13 year old XBOX playing “MAN” is more qualified then ANY woman to lead in a church?? Umm I don’t think so,, I believe Paul was addressing a particular group of gossips at the time, not all women all the time. I also find it funny that the Baptist Churches in the areas I have attended have many women Sunday school teachers ,quire directors (A ministry in itself!!), secretaries in-charge of the Churches money. ETC ETC.. some of those Sunday school teachers GASP, even teach men!! Yet If you are an SBC affiliated woman and God calls you to Preach you cant simply because some old dudes strictly interpret Two biblical passages while ignoring the many other examples?? Heck since when did it become fashionable to cull through select passages in the Bible just so we can support a position while ignoring other passages? are some parts of the Bible actually more important then others? The point is I find the Bible has more positions stating that women should be allowed to hold positions WITH and even sometimes over men.. Then the other way around. We are ALL under GOD so why the silly semantics… also I believe the Bible applies in ALL situations not just Church Settings, so all those women School teachers and professors, well they are all Un-biblical according to the SBC interpretations. somebody please explain Pricilla, Deborah, Phoebe,Miriam and Huldah?? all were sought out by MEN for their opinions.. Deborah not holding a position over men is particularly hard to swallow. Also why was it just with in the last 7 or 8 years that the SBC decided to Champion this particular interpretation? I mean before that time it was ok for women to get ordained and hold leadership positions.

]]> By: C. Andrew Jones III http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-179 C. Andrew Jones III Tue, 09 Jan 2007 03:27:35 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-179 Hey Gwen,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments, and especially for being so candid. Let me explain my perspective by responding to your post piece-by-piece:<br /><br />"So Drew, you are saying that an intelligent women can not teach seminary students which should all be men?"<br /><br />I am asserting that the task of teaching men is biblically restricted to men. My biblical support for this view will be discussed later in this post. I am not saying that seminary students should all be men; Southeastern Seminary has a significant number of smart, godly women studying for their degree (both at the masters and doctoral levels). Women are most welcome and should be encouraged to seek out graduate-level theological education; the Church needs them! Their public teaching ministry, however, is biblically defined to the teaching of other women (Titus 2:3-5).<br /><br />"Women did amazing things in the Bible and they do amazing things now."<br /><br />Absolutely. I agree with you one hundred percent. My wife and your daughter is a living, breathing example of this every day.<br /><br />"Where in the Bible does it say that women can not do anything other that cook, clean and have babies?"<br /><br />Never. The Bible is chalked full of examples of women who excelled in the business world (see Proverbs 31, Acts 16:14). I am not advocating that women are only gifted for work in the home. I do insist, however, that homemakers have a difficult and honorable job which does not get enough credit in our society. I suspect that you will agree with me here after having stayed home with Janel and Jeff for a number of years.<br /><br />On the flip side of your question is, "Where does the Bible teach that women are not to serve as pastors?" 1 Timothy 2:12-13, which reads, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve..." Paul is arguing that women are not to teach, not because they are incapable, but because God designed men and woman to serve equally important, though different roles since the very creation of humanity in the Garden of Eden (see Genesis 2:18-23).<br /><br />"But then we can not be sure that a women did not write part of the Bible."<br /><br />There is no evidence in the Bible itself or in the early church writings that any of the books of the Bible were written by women. Claims that a woman may have written Hebrews began in the 20th century by scholars who admittedly were championing a feminist agenda.<br /><br />"Women study the Bible and are great believers in the Bible and Christianity."<br /><br />Amen. Let's thank God for these women every day.<br /><br />I hope this helps. Feel free to give me a call if you'd like to talk more about this. Hey Gwen,

Thanks for your comments, and especially for being so candid. Let me explain my perspective by responding to your post piece-by-piece:

“So Drew, you are saying that an intelligent women can not teach seminary students which should all be men?”

I am asserting that the task of teaching men is biblically restricted to men. My biblical support for this view will be discussed later in this post. I am not saying that seminary students should all be men; Southeastern Seminary has a significant number of smart, godly women studying for their degree (both at the masters and doctoral levels). Women are most welcome and should be encouraged to seek out graduate-level theological education; the Church needs them! Their public teaching ministry, however, is biblically defined to the teaching of other women (Titus 2:3-5).

“Women did amazing things in the Bible and they do amazing things now.”

Absolutely. I agree with you one hundred percent. My wife and your daughter is a living, breathing example of this every day.

“Where in the Bible does it say that women can not do anything other that cook, clean and have babies?”

Never. The Bible is chalked full of examples of women who excelled in the business world (see Proverbs 31, Acts 16:14). I am not advocating that women are only gifted for work in the home. I do insist, however, that homemakers have a difficult and honorable job which does not get enough credit in our society. I suspect that you will agree with me here after having stayed home with Janel and Jeff for a number of years.

On the flip side of your question is, “Where does the Bible teach that women are not to serve as pastors?” 1 Timothy 2:12-13, which reads, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve…” Paul is arguing that women are not to teach, not because they are incapable, but because God designed men and woman to serve equally important, though different roles since the very creation of humanity in the Garden of Eden (see Genesis 2:18-23).

“But then we can not be sure that a women did not write part of the Bible.”

There is no evidence in the Bible itself or in the early church writings that any of the books of the Bible were written by women. Claims that a woman may have written Hebrews began in the 20th century by scholars who admittedly were championing a feminist agenda.

“Women study the Bible and are great believers in the Bible and Christianity.”

Amen. Let’s thank God for these women every day.

I hope this helps. Feel free to give me a call if you’d like to talk more about this.

]]> By: Gwen Seibert http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-178 Gwen Seibert Tue, 09 Jan 2007 01:38:06 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-178 So Drew, you are saying that an intelligent women can not teach seminary students which should all be men? Women did amazing things in the Bible and they do amazing things now. Where in the Bible does it say that women can not do anything other that cook, clean and have babies? But then we can not be sure that a women did not write part of the Bible. Women study the Bible and are great believers in the Bible and Christianity So Drew, you are saying that an intelligent women can not teach seminary students which should all be men? Women did amazing things in the Bible and they do amazing things now. Where in the Bible does it say that women can not do anything other that cook, clean and have babies? But then we can not be sure that a women did not write part of the Bible. Women study the Bible and are great believers in the Bible and Christianity

]]> By: Charlie Wallace http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-177 Charlie Wallace Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:43:37 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-177 Michael,<br /><br />I agree with Drew. Michael,

I agree with Drew.

]]> By: C. Andrew Jones III http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-175 C. Andrew Jones III Fri, 05 Jan 2007 23:00:23 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-175 I object to a woman teaching any subject at a seminary. Whether one teaches biblical studies, theology, ethics, or even church history, one is still explaining and unfolding the Word. I do make a caveat, however, for secular universities (and maybe Christian colleges). Women should feel free to teach these subjects in secular environments, for this is outside of a church context. I understand a seminary to be a servant of the local congregation, and perhaps an extension of the congregation in the case of a denominationally-subsidized seminary. Therefore, I conclude that no woman should teach co-ed classes at a theological seminary. I object to a woman teaching any subject at a seminary. Whether one teaches biblical studies, theology, ethics, or even church history, one is still explaining and unfolding the Word. I do make a caveat, however, for secular universities (and maybe Christian colleges). Women should feel free to teach these subjects in secular environments, for this is outside of a church context. I understand a seminary to be a servant of the local congregation, and perhaps an extension of the congregation in the case of a denominationally-subsidized seminary. Therefore, I conclude that no woman should teach co-ed classes at a theological seminary.

]]> By: Michael D. Estes http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-174 Michael D. Estes Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:57:16 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-174 Charlie,<br /><br />Does this mean you would be open to a woman teaching New Testament at a seminary? Charlie,

Does this mean you would be open to a woman teaching New Testament at a seminary?

]]> By: Charlie Wallace http://candrewjones.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-173 Charlie Wallace Fri, 05 Jan 2007 16:11:39 +0000 http://candrewjones.wordpress.com/2007/01/04/grudem-on-womens-roles-in-the-church/#comment-173 "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. <br /><br />1 Tim 2:12-13 (NASB)<br /><br />We have to decide what is "teaching," what is "exercising authority," and what is a "man."<br /><br />By the way, this applies only in the church setting.<br /><br />I would say that teaching be any position where a woman is explaining the Bible or things of the Bible.<br /><br />I would say that exercising authority would be anytime a woman is making leadership decisions in the context of the local church.<br /><br />I also would say that a man, based on the culture that Paul was writing in, would be any male 13 years of age and older.<br /><br />Therefore, pastor, co-ed SS teachers, small group co-ed bible study leaders, any minister (outside of children's minister) would be reserved, ideally, for men.<br /><br /><br />I'm just trying to be Biblical. If you don't agree, don't hate the playa, hate the game! “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

1 Tim 2:12-13 (NASB)

We have to decide what is “teaching,” what is “exercising authority,” and what is a “man.”

By the way, this applies only in the church setting.

I would say that teaching be any position where a woman is explaining the Bible or things of the Bible.

I would say that exercising authority would be anytime a woman is making leadership decisions in the context of the local church.

I also would say that a man, based on the culture that Paul was writing in, would be any male 13 years of age and older.

Therefore, pastor, co-ed SS teachers, small group co-ed bible study leaders, any minister (outside of children’s minister) would be reserved, ideally, for men.

I’m just trying to be Biblical. If you don’t agree, don’t hate the playa, hate the game!

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